I'm not wealthy myself, but I aspire to
be. I've been taking a salary sacrifice
for 5 years to build something from the
ground up. The issue is if you target
the wealthy, you're going to
disincentivize people like me who are
building companies in the UK.
>> But why, Alex? Because No, I'm not. I'm
not. Because I'm going to incentivize.
We're going to reduce your levels of
taxation. We're going to reduce the tax
on your income. We're going to reduce
your capital gains because we're going
to what we're going to do is take it off
unearned income from when people die
just passing on big estates. So, we're
going to actually incentivize you to
work harder and we're going to employ
incentivize your employees to work
harder because they're going to make
more out of every pound that they earn.
>> So, here's the thing. Every human is
hardwired to provide for their children.
If you punish that instinct, you're
going to weaken the drive. Let me
explain. If my company goes to a billion
dollars, right, it could.
>> What with the bill?
>> I don't I don't decide the number. All I
want to do is grow something successful
and in response that's going to pay
corporation taxes and make employees
wealthy, etc. Yeah,
>> if the UK does these inherited taxes, I
will relocate because I want to pass my
wealth to my family.
>> Well, and human nature,
>> Alex, let's just say that um let's say I
mean obviously it would be a kind of
ridiculous number, but I hope it
happens. I really do because I'm I have
someone I believe in income generation.
I believe in all I want the country to
do well. So, let's say um you were to
pass on a billion pounds and as a state
and let's say we put inheritance tax and
inheritance tax is let's say I don't
know 70%. Would it be such a big
disincentive thinking, "Oh, I'm going to
pass on 300 million to my kids rather
than 500 million or 600 million."
>> No, no. I'll explain to you why. So, I
don't look down just to my children. I'm
looking to my grandchildren, my great
grandchildren.
>> Exactly. And I don't
>> If you take 70% from each round,
there'll be zero left.
>> Well, not if they do not if they do
something with it. Don't you think Don't
you want your great grandchildren to
work hard just like you have done rather
than just, oh, my great granddad who I
didn't even know gave me three 700
million quid. I'm going to live off that
for the rest of my life. What kind of
existence is that? But if I work my if I
make all this sacrifice and I've age
myself and we all do this, you know,
everyone's working hard. But if you're
just giving it to the government, that's
again desensitizing me because I want to
provide for generations. I want
multigenerational wealth. And again, I
don't have it now.
>> Take a holiday. Spend the money. Take
holiday. Spend the money. Buy a nice
car. I don't know. Like why do you why
why do we prioritize? And you know, if
you do that, then that's creating other
jobs. That's putting that money back
into the economy, which is exactly my
point. Rather than storing it up in
wealth. You see, this is where it's
difficult. It's difficult to change your
opinion and others. But I will just say
this that it will definitely change the
way that I will view living in the UK if
they do all these things. Here's another
thing. Microsoft did an IPO in 1986,
right? That made three billionaires
potentially a lot more. 12,000
millionaires from employees were made
from that company. When a company does
well, the UK were full of unfortunately
dinosaurs in the footsie. If you look at
the US, all these companies like Meta,
Amazon, Tesla, look how much wealth that
provides. How many employees are
millionaires? We need companies like
this to grow. We need to have tech
companies in the UK. And we have the
talent. The UK is full of amazing
talent, but they all want to leave. When
I go to startup conferences and I speak
to other founders, they all just want to
go to America.
>> Do you do you do you do, Alex, do you
accept that there does need to at least
be some limits on wealth and on
inherited wealth? Because if you don't,
you end up in a situation that we have
and we're we're getting back towards
that situation by the way. Well, a
situation you had in the 19th century
and the guilded age where you basically
had, you know, if you look at when
inequality was its peak in the in the
19th century, the top 10% owned 90% of
the wealth. Now, would you accept that
that was a problem that was corrected by
the big wealth taxes that came along in
the 20th century as a result of the
first and second world war? Would you
accept that what we saw in the 19th
century which was an age quite similar
to our own increasingly that was a
problem?
>> But it's changed so much since then,
right?
>> But we're going back. We're going back.
>> Well, I think actually the UK we're
losing a lot. I mean, if you look at the
way the UK was, first of all, UK is
involved in every single war, right? We
built industries. We were a country that
led and we're not doing that now. We
should be. We have the talent here. I
mean to think that you know standards of
life and
>> in order to do that but Alex in order to
do that as well it's not quite as simple
as that is it because in order to do
that and to create that wealth you have
to have all of the components that make
allow you to create a business here that
means a highly educated workforce that
means a thriving H sector that means
infrastructure that works. You don't
make a business entirely on your own.
And in order to have those things you've
got to have a sound tax base to pay for
them.
>> I think we're taxing too much. I agree
with you on income. I agree with you on
income. You're right. We are taxing too
much. That's why we need to shift. But
the
>> point I'm making is you can't just
change the rule. Again, I'm not part of
the elite. But if you start saying we're
going to start doing heavy inheritance
tax, that is going to disincentivize me
to want to remain in the UK. And I'm
born in the UK. I lived in the US. So
I'm born think this guy just talking
American, you know, expat.
>> But we can't win, can we? Because we
also get people who say therefore that
um, you know, we're taxing income too
highly. So they're going to go and live
in in in Dubai or they're going to go
and live in Portugal or wherever it is.
So we've got to we've got to make a
decision somewhere.
>> I think like I said, you got to put the
horse in front of the cart. If you
promote growth, wealth will be trickled
down. Like I said, Microsoft
>> that has been proved that has been
proved again and again not to be true. R
>> Yeah. I just think you're being really
cruel in what you're saying. Yeah, I do
actually. And I'll tell you why. I'll
tell you why. I've been nursing since
1973. I've never been able to afford to
not nurse. I sadly was left and had to
bring up my children on my own from a
very when they were very young. Um and
um it was only because sadly I lost my
dad recently that I've been able to pay
off my mortgage.
>> Right. Well, I'm very sorry to hear that
you lost your dad, J. But
>> yes, and I've been able to pay off my
mortgage. Now, the point is I can now
reduce the hours I'm nursing. I'm now
doing child care to help my one of my
daughters out because child care is so
expensive. Um I've never been able to
spoil them. I never go out for meals. I
don't go on holidays. I just work and
I'm well over retirement age. And I'm
just so hated off because do you know
what? My kids are fantastic. One of them
is a teacher now. What's that got to do
with anything Jenny
ladder? Exactly.
>> Hang on a minute. Hang on a minute.
Making my point for me.
>> Hang on. No, you're not. No, you're not
listening to me. You're interrupting.
What I'm going to say is that the one
thing that that cheers me up is that at
some point I'm going to die. And when
that happens, at least No, it doesn't.
What it does do, it makes me feel that
at least, and because we live in the
Southeast,
that's just how it was and is. Um, I
have a house, a very small ordinary
house, but it happens to be worth a lot
of money. It's worth over the 350,000
that is when you start paying um
inheritance tax. And so, you know, I
just get pleasure from thinking, well,
at least at the long last, they they're
used to not having any money. We're all
used to not having any money. We've
never had to rec I've never had any form
of um you know extra help from the
government you know other than what you
know child credit. I have never been on
any form of income support or anything
like that. I'm very fortunate and I'm
grateful for that. But I think what
you're saying, you're inferring that
because I have a house that because I
live in the Southeast is worth a
reasonable amount of money that I'm this
rolling and bloody rich person. And yet
I don't go out for meals. I bet you do.
I bet you go on nice holidays. I don't.
>> Janet. Janet.
>> I think you're cruel and very
>> Okay, Janet. Janet, can I can I can I
just put a couple of counterpoints to
you right in a respectful way and I hope
that you see that I'm not cruel. I would
say that you your kids can't afford a
house. You're making my point.
>> One of them can. Okay. The other one
can't because she's a single person on
her own.
>> Yeah. And I bet she's paying very high
rates of income tax. Higher rates of in
No. No. Just let me finish. Jenny,
Jenny, Jenny, you've had your say. Let
me just let me just come back. Okay. And
then you can come back again.
>> She's going to be paying higher and
higher rates of income tax. That is
because as an economy overall, we are
taxing wealth too little because it's a
bigger and bigger part of our economy
and taxing working people too much. Now,
wouldn't it be better? Wouldn't it be
better for your daughter, but also all
of the other people's sons and daughters
who perhaps aren't as fortunate to be in
a position to inherit wealth or inherit
a house to be in a position where the
government had enough money to fund the
actual construction of enough homes for
everyone? Number one. and B when they
have done so for your daughter to be in
a position that she is not paying so
much of her income month after month to
be able to save for a deposit to buy a
house rather than just waiting for you
with respect to die.
>> No, I don't think that would be better.
>> Then we are in a fundamental point of
disagreement. totally agree with it and
that's why these rich people like the
royal family and Duke of Westminster
that you mentioned. It's absolutely
shocking and I'm sure there's many other
people that aren't well known that get
away with it and it's like how how can
we how can this happen? You know, it's
Yeah, that I totally agree with that
quote. Well done for finding that.
>> Well, there we go. You agree with John
Stewart Mill, our previous caller.
That's nice to hear. Natasha, do you
think that
>> and the lady that spoke before as well
about the disabled child, you know,
we're in that situation, my brother, and
you know, not everyone, like you said,
can work and earn their own money. You
know, there's all sorts of challenges
that one might face. And as any parent
would, you want to make sure your kids
are looked after after you've gone.
What's wrong with that?
>> Yes, of course. That's right. So, but
wait, I thought you um are you are you
in favor of inheritance tax or against
it?
Um
I'm I'm
talking about the extreme wealth. I'm in
favor of it.
>> Okay.
>> Um but then and they don't pay it. So
you know let let's charge it to the
people that don't pay it that should.
>> All right. Natasha in farm there. I mean
that is also always of course one of the
slight problems with tax. Everyone's in
favor of it on somebody else. But there
we go. We're in a circle of doing,
especially when you've got Rachel from
accounts and you're coming up with
similar ideas. Basically,
>> it's not very Rachel from accounts. Some
people think that's rather offensive,
quite quite sexy to say, Michael, but
there we go.
>> Well, well, put it this way. There are
stories, but I'm not going to go into
that around. What I'm saying with regard
to inheritance tax, um, I think you
should go and live in a communist
society because what you're trying to do
is redistribute wealth. I agree that
people a lot of people have worked hard
all their life and they've paid for
their properties and inherited and all.
Do
>> you think 1920s England was a communist
society?
>> No, I didn't say it was a communist
society. What I'm saying these people
have worked hard.
>> No, but Michael, you're accusing me of
saying saying I should go and live in a
communist society and I'm advocating
basically communism. Inheritance taxes
were higher in 1920s Britain than they
were today. So do you think 1920s
Britain was a communist
>> property values and everything inherit
property values weren't as high then
what I'm saying to you
>> it's the principle the value is is
neither here nor there it's the
principle isn't it likewise after the
1940s we had much higher inheritance tax
and guess what in both periods our
economy was more dynamic merit there was
more meritocracy there was more social
cohesion and there was more social
mobility
>> yes but I agree what you're saying that
inheritance tax needs to be changed yes
but not as high as what you're
suggesting
>> well sure okay fine we can have a debate
about the threshold for sure but at the
moment it is my contention would be too
low and we may need to move away from
taxes on income to unearned to taxes on
unearned income via wealth.
>> Well unearned income is paid at 40%
capital gains tax. What you could also
do if you want to raise taxes
>> capital gains is at 25%.
>> But they could raise that up a bit
higher,
>> right? Okay. Yeah. Well, that's a that's
certainly an idea. The other thing is
obviously that if you look at it um
council tax, they could raise money on
council tax because if you got a house
>> but that's regressive.
>> Yeah, it's regressive. But what I'm
saying to you is if somebody's got a
house worth a million or 2 million, why
should they be paying in a higher rate
band as somebody has only got a house
worth 400,000? But the problem with the
council, I mean, I agree with you in
principle, Michael, but then the the the
the problem with the council tax
obviously is that it's such an imperfect
system because it's based on property
valuation of the early 1990s because no
government has dared to look at it again
since. So I think just sort of adding
extra bands. You're just compounding an
imperfect system. Far better to look at
wealth taxation in the round including
inheritance tax, including property
taxation and come up with something new.
Listen, I think you know property
inheritance tax might need to be
changed, but as the previous caller
said, losing the family home is one. Why
shouldn't I work hard, which I've done
all my life and decide to give my
children's an inheritance? But why
should people who work should work hard
all their lives pay less as a percent or
more as a percentage of their income
just because they haven't happened to be
in a position to inherit anything from
anybody than people who do inherit
things from from their parents and
grandparents for which they have done
nothing to earn it.
>> I I disagree with you there but the
other thing if you want to raise money
like other countries you keep mentioning
European countries let's take America
some on a lottery if you win the lottery
in America you pay tax. Yeah. Okay,
fine. But I mean, I'm not sure America
with its massive wealth and income um
inequalities is necessarily something we
should be aiming for.
>> I've rented all my life and I have a son
and I've done every job known to mankind
from being a dustman to building and all
sorts of things apart from my actual
profession.
But um but what I was going to say is
that Margaret Thatcher with the right to
buy originally. Okay. A lot of people it
got people you know allowed them to
become richer and so on selling their
council flats and all but what's
happened is a total commodification
of our whole economy
>> and that is destroying
a social um atmosphere that I grew up in
and has existed for a long time because
it's actually a very subtle form of
dividing hidden rule which is the
absolute inherent nature of the politics
in this country and the quotes that
everyone is using which absolutely I
couldn't understand two phrases social
mobility and the housing ladder now what
would the subtext of those two phrases
be you can believe them or you could
read the subtext being you should feel
insecure about who you are and should be
aspiring to be something greater.
>> Now in France, I heard a debate on
there. I I had friend family. They said
in France we work to have a life. In
England you live to work. And that's
sort of what you were saying. I know I'm
I'm being a bit more sort of general and
less precise with evidence, but I know
that to be true. Our children now are
starting life
without any help. 50 grand in debt. Now,
if you're from a rich family, you're
going to make a lot of money out of 2
and 12% loan. You'll make money out of
that.
>> Yes. If you're a clever parent, if you
have no capital and your parents are
just working or maybe not working, but
your son or daughter gets you to start
life 50 grand in debt. My generation, we
got grants. We didn't have to pay. It's
absolutely and no one ever talks about
that. No one ever talks about the as you
were saying the top down and it and the
knock-on effect which is hitting us now
with why we're talking about it mental
health all these issues that are coming
up dayto day are to do with a lot to do
with social insecurity.
>> Absolutely.
>> When I started off we had a thing called
social security. Now, if you try going
down that path, you're virtually told
you're a criminal.